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Tips For Football Chairman Iphone 4

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    - Sign superstar players and boost your club's worldwide reputation

    - Pick your club's local 'derby' rivals

    - Full youth squad; watch your young players develop

    - Players have personalities, playing styles, and happiness and fitness

    - Managers use different formations and playing styles

    - Offer win bonuses, promotion bonuses, and fine players for indiscipline

    - New challenge scenarios to test your skills

    - 50 achievements to aim for, including 15 brand new ones

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    PA System for Football Club query - Digital DJ Tips

    PA System for Football Club query

    This topic contains 7 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by DJ Vintage 2 years, 3 months ago.

    Hi guys, sorry for a question on my first post but I am completely stuck here.

    I have read through the PA system guide on this site but I have a burning question that I need to put by someone “in the know”

    I have been tasked by my football club to order and fit a new PA system.

    From what I gather I need a “power mixer” which will avoid me having to get a separate amp?

    Would this be ok?

    My next question is I need to be able to connect 4 speakers to it, is this possible with this system?

    I have already sourced the speakers which obviously have to weather/waterproof.

    Hopefully someone can help, I need to have this order by Sunday!! 🙁

    Is that soccer or American Football? 😀

    Effectively two ways of putting speakers up.

    1) Active speakers. Speakers have amplifiers built-in. You run power and signal from a mixer or sound source into them. Cons: you need to run power to them, they are not very suited for permanent installation where getting to them is hard(er) to service, repair or change settings on them. Pros: You can run long signal cables without too much signal loss, if one speaker fails, you still have sound from the others.

    2) Passive speakers. As you’d expect, these have no amps in them, just speakers. Cons: you can’t just hook up as many as you like, you have to watch things like impedance and such when configuring speaker and amp setup. You have to run heavier speaker cable to them. Long cable lengths can/will lead to signal loss. Amp failure will lead to all sound being gone, not just one speaker. Pros: better suited for permanent installations, it’s set and forget essentially. No need to run power to them.

    Some of the cons for option 2), especially when long cable runs are needed, is to use what’s known as a 100V(olt)-system. Without getting into the technical nitty-gritty of things, what happens is that instead of sending a normal amplifier signal straight to the speaker, the signal is first transformed to a 100V signal, then transported and then transformed back.

    This would also make daisy-chaining speakers easier. More speakers will give a more evenly spread distribution of sound.

    You can buy special 100V amps for the purpose as well as 100V speakers. Or you can use aftermarket transformers.

    Since you don’t tell us how far away from the amp your speakers need to be, can’t say if you’d need that or not.

    Onto the mixer. Powered mixers may have the advantage of not needing a separate amp, but the disadvantage of when it breaks down, you are out both an amp AND your mixer. As for the particular mixer: anything with “Tec” in the name is generally rubbish. This particular brand has been around for a long time and gets sold in electronic retail stores like Tandy and such. I see it being bought by young kids for their bedroom because the price is next to nothing. As is the quality, generally speaking.

    You even get a wireless microphone for that 119 GBP as well as bluetooth. There is just no way that this is anything but cheap lowest possible quality gear. Chances of malfunction high, quality of operation and sound when it works low.

    Being a sports club I am gonna be guessing that budget is tight. Still I’d advice getting a mixer and amp separately. And frankly, I’d go to your local rental place, explain your situation and try getting something that is going ex-rental. They might even “sponsor” the club some in exchange for some banners in the stadium or mention on the game booklets or whatever. You may have old(er) equipment but of a far superior quality and professional level for the same kind of money. Ask them if they’d be willing to service the gear too.

    Finally. You say you have bought the speakers already. But without knowing things like power handling and impedance it’s hard to say if they are suitable and sufficient for your purpose AND what spec the amp needs to have in order to provide what you need.

    The Skytec is a 150Wx2 powered mixer, without saying if it’s RMS or music (assuming the latter, which is usually the case when RMS is not specified), whether it is into 4 or 8 Ohm. Now clearly you are not building a power house PA to rock a soccer stadium with 103dB music and the main purpose will most likely be voice amplification of the stadium speaker, right?

    Even then, with only 4 speakers to cover a stadium or field, 150W total (especially if it’s indeed not RMS) is on the (very) low side of things.

    Final word on the speakers. Impedance (Ohm) goes down by half when parallel connected. I.e. if you hook up two 8 Ohm speakers in a row, the amp gets a 4 Ohm load. This will give you TWICE the power than an 8 Ohm load would have, but ONLY when the amp is capable of driving into 4 Ohm. Some amps (especially cheaper ones) don’t take lightly to being abuse that way an will burn-out quickly when used like that. Also if you have two 4 Ohm speakers and hook those up in a row, you end up with 2 Ohm load at the amp. And except for high end, pro quality amps, that is considered a short by most amps which will go into short protection mode (if they have it) or just simple burn-out and be finished. And if you run really long cables (like going to the corners of a soccer field, the cable will add to the impedance/resistance of the entire system as well.

    Long answer, but unfortunately your problem does not have a simple, buy a) and b) and hook it up solution.

    If you want a more specific answer, you’ll need to provide some more info on cable lengths, speakers and such.

    Again, you might want to reconsider getting it all installed before sunday and just rent a 100V system from a rental company for coming weekend and buy yourself some extra time to get it right. Again, not saying you need to go out and buy new, expensive stuff. But buying well-used professional gear is still a better option than buying (sorry, can’t say it any other way) crappy new stuff that will only give you grief.

    Time to get creative and drill into the social network of the club. Imho each club has people that either know/have stuff or know people that know/have stuff and/or are willing to do donate/sponsor some gear. Tapping into those resources takes a bit more time than running out to a store and buying the first available thing.

    Wish you luck with your challenge.

    Wow, thank you DJ vintage, I never expected such a detailed and helpful answer!

    Ok, I will move away from the “Tec” idea. I think I may have mislead when I said I’d sourced the speakers I meant I had found some but even those I am now doubting.

    For reference here is an image of where they will initially be installed. We do want to put some the other side of the ground as well maybe at the same time or in the next 12 months. But now your saying about the loss of sound I am concerned. (for some reason it won’t let me insert this as a URL)

    The Amp etc will be housed in the blue building to the left, the speakers in both sides of the stand

    I can only see general speakers up to 120w our old system used 2x340w speakers but obviously these are too heavy and not weatherproof to install permanently.

    Below is a list that a company quoted us for:-

    1 x Studiomaster Club 8 Mixer, USB/Bluetooth

    1 x Adastra RM120 Mixer Amp 5 Channel 120w

    1 x Kam KWM11 Dual Radio Mic system

    2 x Adastra 100v Speakers Black

    Does this sound better to you?

    Really appreciate your help on this, we have a budget of up to £650, essentially we want the sound to carry across the pitch if possible, which from what your saying might not work?

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by Jon Faulkner.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by Jon Faulkner.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by Jon Faulkner.

    While I don’t know this particular brand, it IS a 100V amp and they are offering 100V speakers. That all should work. The amount of power is always an issue of course. 100V systems tend to have lesser power per speaker, but you just hang up more of them.

    Depending on what you intend to do with it, you might even get away without a full blown PA mixer. If all you have is one or two music sources and two mics, even something relatively small and simple as the new Yamaha MG06 would do. You get gain and tone control on your mic channels and volume control on your two stereo sources.

    So, little bit dependent on what it is you are trying to do.

    But this sounds better (because of the 100V) than the previous one. Again, I can’t comment on the quality of the actual brand.

    Thanks once again DJ Vintage, I was wondering, as the speakers will be under the roof of the stand at the back and won’t be subjected to wind/rain do you think I could just get passive standard speakers.

    I am really struggling with wattage. The Chairman wants the sound to travel across to the other side of the pitch and with outdoor speakers they generally only go as high as 100w which won’t do the job.

    Ideally I am looking for 200w+ do you think I could get away with standard 10/12″ speakers (as long as I could mount them)

    I have had a look at the Yamaha mixer but we are looking for a bluetooth input to connect iphone etc.

    If I can go with normal speakers I think that means I can get a different amp as well (moving away from the 100v).

    I found a list of “avoid at all costs” on makes so I know what I should be avoiding.

    Don’t move away from 100V is all I can say, unless you are willing to go active speakers and have a power outlet present near the speakers. Also, not being in direct rain or even wind is only part of the issue. It’s outside, there is highly variable humidity issue there as well as strongly changing temperatures over the course of the year. The speakers WILL hurt from that and deteriorate at a high rate, imho.

    Depending on the budget I’d get someone that has proven experience with stadium sound, either as a supplier or as an independent advisor. While you sent a picture at the end of the day eyes on is the way to go here. Then make sure you have a clear picture of the desired outcome. You say the Chairman wants the sound to travel to the other side of the pitch, but you don’t say how loud for example.

    As I tried explaining earlier, if you have to cover more area with sound, there are two ways of going about it, stronger speakers at the source or more smaller speakers spread out. In your case the first isn’t really an option. I can do the math for you, but suffice to say that in order to get to something like 80 dB sound level (which will be barely above the sound of a crowd at a game or even way below) across the pitch means the speakers will have to be SO loud that nobody will want to sit anywhere near them.

    Also our ears work better with sound coming from the front. I’d position the speakers at the stands underneath and firing back to the seats. Then perhaps two more speakers at the front firing across the pitch. This puts the sound source in FRONT of a loud bleecher full of people instead of behind it. Or put two speakers in the light posts across the pitch firing along the sidelines to the center line or wherever the audience is there.

    Many options and you need some serious local and experienced advice to come up with something that won’t make you/the club feel like they have wasted time and money on whatever the solution is you pick. Something we haven’t even discussed yet is delay an whether or not that is/will be an issue. Also something someone knowledgeable can help you with.

    I can’t give you the kind of advice you need beyond what I did so far. I hope that opened your eyes a little to the complexity of the situation you have. As said, it’s not a get two speakers and some cable and your done thing. And to the fact that you need someone to assist you there. If it’s the supplier, make sure you can express your needs as precisely as possible (on paper), get them to sign off on those so when stuff is finally installed and it doesn’t work as advertised, you can have them fix it and not face that bill yourself.

    Thank you ever so much for your advice, it has helped so much!

    I have gone for an Adaptec 240W 100v Mixer Amplifier and Adaptec 4x60w Weatherproof speakers.

    obviously 100v double insulated cable. The make isn’t on any “stay away lists” as far as I can see and I am getting them direct from the manufacturers with a 3 year warranty.

    I have worked in IT for over 25 years so I am not too rusty on cabling/electrics etc, it was more me understanding the best way to do this sort of thing.

    My only thing I need to get my head round now (when they arrive) is how to run the cable to all four in chain when the amp is in the middle and 2 of the speakers will be 100m+ away from the others!

    I will get my pen and paper out 🙂

    Once I have completed the setup I will take some images of what was done.

    You Sir are a Gentleman and I really appreciate all the advice you have given me!

    Anything we can do to help. Hope it all works out. Sounds like you are on the right track.

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